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mmaddux
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
# Posts: 5
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Posted: 2005-Jan-11 21:48
I'd like to open a discussion of a company known as Window Positions. In past posts, they have been refered to as Search Climbers. They sell keywords and promote them through their network of browsers who have downloaded their plug-in. You can find their download at download.com and other freeware sites.
I recently received a phone call from a rep selling keywords at 9 per word. Apprently this was from their coroporate office (so it's not one of their resellers).
Question: What type of person would go out of their way to download their software (it allows people to type in a keyword in the browser address bar instead of typing in the address)?
On the other hand, let's say you find a keyword that generates 700,000 searches a month based on the Overture network. They claim to have 16 million browsers with their software, that makes up 25% of the broadband market, and a very small percentage of the overall market. Even if you received 1% of those searches, that would still bring you 84,000 hits per year at a rate of 1/2 a cent per click. A lot cheaper than pay-per-click if your market is competitive wouldn't you say?
I'm on the fence on whether to try this out. I've gone as far as to call people who are using their services. I've received one positive comment (someone that was a testimonial) and three negative comments. The negative comments either had poor quality sites or were in a tough category like real estate (often more hands on). I welcome any and all feedback! Thanks!
[ Message was edited by: mmaddux 01/12/2005 08:15 am ]
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affinity
Joined: Dec 10, 2001
# Posts: 91
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Posted: 2005-Jan-12 14:08
From my experience.... I get a call form a company a week offering this kind of product for my clients. They nearly always inflate the levels of downloads of the software, and there own sites barely listed or find-able, so where do these millions of people download there product.
I don't believe that most people would actively download a plug-in that takes over your browser and at $399.99 each term depending what they are you are quite right spent on Google or Overture you would probably achieve a much more productive campaign which you have total control over.
Me, I always avoid them.
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St0n3y
Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
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Posted: 2005-Jan-12 23:57
Many times the software is spyware and people have downloaded it inadvertantly, and it has taken over their browser. Not good.
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scoot32685
Joined: Jan 31, 2005
# Posts: 5
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Posted: 2005-Jan-31 23:23
man you realy have no idea what you are talking about. why is it that when something new comes a long every one wants to down it. if this keyword technology dose not work tell me why yahoo and google are doing it now. you shouldnt knock it, unless you've tried it. dont hate! you web masters are just mad because window positions is talking all you clients, and you cant make any money off of them any more. Pay Per Click is a scam, why should you pay even if the person is not looking for you. That should be the topic.
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beth_lk
Staff
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
# Posts: 1247
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Posted: 2005-Feb-01 00:20
scoot - there is no call to be rude.
The responses were posted here as they were REQUESTED by mmaddux.
Now play nice please 
Beth
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beth_lk
Staff
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
# Posts: 1247
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Posted: 2005-Feb-01 00:21
My 2 cents are - I agree with St0n3y post.
Beth
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mmaddux
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
# Posts: 5
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Posted: 2005-Feb-01 00:40
We'll I now have some real data for you. I purchased the keyword "gift ideas" with Window Positions to see what would happen and we've only received 124 visits in over two weeks. That's a pretty popular word so they really aren't bringing people much traffic unfortunately.
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beth_lk
Staff
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
# Posts: 1247
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Posted: 2005-Feb-01 00:54
Thanks for the update mmaddux
Beth
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St0n3y
Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
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Posted: 2005-Feb-01 15:14
I still stand by my point. Notie the words "many times". I don't know anything about windows positions but do know that a gread deal of these companies "selling" keywords can only get their software on "users" computers via spyware.
scoot32685, if you know that windows positions software is downloaded legitimately and knowlingly 100% of the time, and not bundled as spyware with other downloads, please do let us know.
Take this opporutinity to let us all know that Windows Positions is not a scam.
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yellowwing
Joined: May 21, 2002
# Posts: 2526
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Posted: 2005-Feb-02 10:06
How does Alexa get people to download their toolbar? Were they the first company to do this?
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scoot32685
Joined: Jan 31, 2005
# Posts: 5
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Posted: 2005-Feb-22 22:56
I know that window positions is not a scam, they have over 16 million people with the software and do not have the whole internet. google is doing the same type of thing with the downloadable toolbar. now if google called you and asked you to advertise to thier network you would say yes. but they only have 3 million people with the toolbar. food for thought. stop bad mouthing if you dont know.
when you go to download.com and get free software you have to agree to the software that comes with it. so if you read the fine print you will know that you are also getting the plug-in. window positions also has a search engine called searchclimbers.com there is no soft ware need to see the i frame there. so when you advertise with them you get over 16 million in the network, and the open internet with the search engine.
[ Message was edited by: bhartzer 02/22/2005 03:26 pm ]
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St0n3y
Joined: May 01, 2002
# Posts: 1620
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Posted: 2005-Feb-23 18:13
so if you read the fine print you will know that you are also getting the plug-in.
Classic! Not spyware, eh?
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g1smd
Staff
Joined: Jul 28, 2002
# Posts: 10438
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Posted: 2005-Feb-23 19:53
Not spyware. No, it's not.
It's sneaky scumware.
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mmaddux
Joined: Jan 11, 2005
# Posts: 5
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Posted: 2005-Feb-23 20:50
Here's another update from the guy who opened this discussion. Window Positions isn't all bad, they refunded most of my money minus a $60 setup fee after some strong negotiations. On the first attempt for a refund, the sales manager said, "we are not in the business of giving refunds." He was very defensive and didn't seem to undertand my logic. Eventually he caved and refunded most of my money... I wonder why?
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metafizx
Joined: Sep 26, 2005
# Posts: 1
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Posted: 2005-Sep-26 22:22
I have researched these types of advertising strategies, and they are border line scams.
They also market themselves as other names such as "Placement Power".
I have had atleast 2 clients get heavily sales pitches from these guys.
From what I can see, their "application" needs to be installed on your computer to get any results from their "search engine" which amounts to using antiquated and loosely supported iFrame on-top-of a major search engine sort of strategy.
They will take their unsuspecting victims to their website for a "demo" and immediately shows you your website on-top-of a major search engine like Google. But what it really is a iFrame trick and has nothing to do with Google searches, or any other major search engine. If you commit to their program, you sign up for a year or more and pay them for a few keywords they say you "own" which in the real world is bogus, no one "owns" keywords.
They usually make claims like "16 million people have our technology installed". I have yet to come across a single person with this installed, and I have a computer service business and have quite a few clients.
While it might not be the classic "spyware" it is a form of advertising-ware that is not a major search engine nor a industry supported application, although they like to tell you they are aligning themselves with "Internet Explorer" and are on the same level as Adobe Reader, being "windows authenticode certified".
I would IMMEDIATELY remove any such junk app that gets installed from these clowns. Anything not part of the IE base components or a known application such as Google Toolbar are subject to removal. There are just too many companies out there ripping people off or messing with their computer from spyware, adware, malware to be allowing some weird unknown adware app on their computers.
JUST SAY NO !
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lizardz
Joined: Nov 12, 2004
# Posts: 1394
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Posted: 2005-Sep-26 22:51
"I know that window positions is not a scam, they have over 16 million people with the software and do not have the whole internet."
Scoot, if you're going to pretend to be something other than an employee of this company, at least take the time to create a statement that is not a direct quote from the company in question's website. Spyware, scumware... of course they don't have anyone original enough working for them to actually come up with an even slightly creative fake identity. Sigh. Why does the web attract such sleaze? Will this ever stop?
It's sad really, the web is so anonymous people just feel free to lie, cheat, and deceive as a natural course of work. Depressing.
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dcaff03
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 142
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Posted: 2005-Oct-01 09:59
"...why is it that when something new comes a long every one wants to down it..."
Nothing new about this...there have been many variations on this one for many years now...
Here's how it goes...
You get a call from a sales person who has definitely been jacking up on caffiene (from his/her favorite source)...
They probably found you via the engines or some other means (and if they use the current PPC costs in your sector as a conversation leverage...then perhaps you are doing PPC and they found you this way)..
Takes seconds to figure out what folks are paying CPC for their targeted phrases...so they approach you with the wonderful news that you can "OWN" your keywords in your sector at a steep discounted rate vs. PPC .. (e.g. 9 cents)
The key here is the idea that you will "OWN" your keywords...this one will always get web owners/webmasters juices flowing...
Their claims that they have an installed base of 16 million users are always overstated...and many of these users have no idea that they have just installed buggy spyware/adware on their machines...
They will roll on this scam until enough people get wind of what's up and the complaints pull down the profit margin...change the name of the business and start all over again...
nice doing business with you..!
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SportsGuy
Staff
Joined: Aug 30, 2002
# Posts: 3600
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Posted: 2005-Oct-02 19:24
Ah, the debate rages...LOL
Let's all just agree, well, scoot may not, but the rest of us might:
Folks should stay away from this type of stuff regardless of the name of the company.
If it sounds too good,...
For the record, I have been there, done that and have the logs to show it's *mostly* bogus.
I say mostly because we did receive what appear to be some legit visits from our "provider of choice" (not around any more) - they came, they stayed for a while, they left. Can't judge them as bad just because of the source.
I can judge bad, however, the 10,000 visits of 2 seconds or less. But the few hundred we saw which stayed for 2 - 3 minutes, well, I have my own thoughts, but based on the numbers, they were real.
Let's see, $4,000 ($900 per phrase) for roughly 275 visits - oh yeah, THAT is a bargain! (insert enough sarcasm to tilt a folk-lift)
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apples9490
Joined: Nov 28, 2005
# Posts: 1
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Posted: 2005-Nov-29 05:52
From what I know about this is it appears to be a scam or a misleading form of advertising. For instance here I read about a company called WindowPositions, another about Cloud Nine, Inc.
The other companies selling the same Iframe techonology and selling keywords are:
keywordregistry.com
placementpower.org
www.playgroundsoftheworld.com/cima/home.asp
clientswindows.com/products.asp
and who knows how many others.
I spent $3,000 for three keywords which I purchased exclusively for a year. Apparently you can purchase these same keywords with any of these other companies. Whether they are the same company or not I am not sure. I contacted my bank about this as I believe it is a fraud.
Even if it is legitimate how many other companies are selling the same thing? Who really owns the keywords or this technology. If you spent your money, get it back before it is too late.
Stephanie
P
[ Message was edited by: bhartzer 11/29/2005 12:16 pm ]
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dirty_shame
Joined: Aug 28, 2005
# Posts: 191
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Posted: 2005-Nov-30 04:32
To apples9490, yours is the type of post that makes me sad.
It's like getting bit by snake oil. It doesn't matter if the sales people and promoters of these things genuinely believe in them or not. Their "company" won't be in business long enough to rectify the horrendous damage they do.
So you have a bunch of propeller-heads who mistakenly think they have some original technology to sell. The sales geeks grab it and run with it, telling you they have X million users already according to...them. Dah, dah.
Does anybody seriously believe that these people are in keen competition with Google and Yahoo and MSN? "Yes", they say "our technology is far better and our people are way, way smarter than theirs...". Yeah right. Think Hula-Hoop.
Buying keywords from these folks is as credible as buying a residential house lot on Mars next to the Big Canal. Just because they have the suburbs layed-out and the streets named doesn't mean anybody wants to visit you there.
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