Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 03/26/2003 09:43 pm
netcservices.co.uk said:
I wouldnt be complining.
File off the serial codes and change the number plates and they couldnt take it back cos they cant prove its theirs 
:D hahaha yes, I suppose I wouldn't complain either if I could keep the Mercedes for a few thousand (or resell it at a major profit). Guess I gotta be sure to keep most of my money under the mattress so Gator can't get it from my checking account 
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ttripp
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 74
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Posted: 03/31/2003 04:22 pm
Interesting. I've never been attacked by Gator before, however, food for thought: A few months back a piece of software installed itself on my maching after visiting a site. Not only did I complain to them, but also--uh, can't remember who--commerce department or something--that a virus was installed on my machine by this company. They did react hostily, so I'm guessing I was pushing some right buttons. I think the argument is strong that something like this is a virus and should be reported and treated as such. Well, look at your McAfee for the appropriate authorities...
The argument that it is not a virus is?
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 04/01/2003 08:11 am
The funny thing about Gator is that they said a year ago they do not condone sneaking Gator onto computers. But their allowance of using that method clearly makes them liars because I have read hundreds of reports of Gator being sneaked onto unsuspecting surfers. The surfers are only told afterwards that they have Gator installed after it's too late to stop the download.
And Overture wants to partner with such a company? Makes yah wonder what kind of company Overture is for working with Gator.
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netcservices.co.uk
Joined: Aug 06, 2002
# Posts: 1594
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Posted: 04/01/2003 08:14 am
Also I think if you sued Gator for installing something on your computer without authorization you would most likely win hands down.
Id sue them for criminal damage because it does mess your computer up big time.
Either that or because I run a business from my machine maybe ill get them closed down for industrial sabotage with malicious intent. I could probably get away with it too
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ChryslerBldg
Joined: Apr 02, 2001
# Posts: 76
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Posted: 04/01/2003 01:18 pm
Actually, you probably couldn't.
Everything they do is disclaimed. And that makes it legal. You may disgree with it, but it's not illegal (at least not as of yet)
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 04/01/2003 03:00 pm
How can a person agree to a disclaimer that they can't even see before the program is installed? That could throw it back into the illegal end of the spectrum.
When you install programs on your machines, you almost always agree to agreements and disclaimers before the installation takes place. Just install Adobe products or Microsoft products. A disclaimer and agreement must be agreed upon before installation commences. With Gator, you cannot agree to any disclaimer you haven't seen. That in and of itself could very well push the case into the illegal realm WHERE IT BELONGS.
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 04/01/2003 03:05 pm
Bottom line... for many people who got Gator'd, there was no agreement for installation nor was there any disclaimer to be agreed too. It was a sneaky forced download tactic and that qualifies it as a new form of virus (hybrid virus) though not malicious in nature (some would argue that too) but still a virus of sorts. They are auto-loading software that the user did not ask for.
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ChryslerBldg
Joined: Apr 02, 2001
# Posts: 76
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Posted: 04/02/2003 06:08 am
You're mistaken. Gator disclaims exactly what they are installing when the install gets launched. There is nothing illegal about ad-ware. It's is disclaimed and it's uninstallable.
Again, you may disagree with it, but it's completely legal at present.
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 04/02/2003 08:54 pm
You are definitely missing the point. How can they disclaim something that the user cannot agree too??? In order for the disclaimer to be valid the user has to see it first before installation. Wake up!
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 04/02/2003 09:06 pm
Ha uninstallable?
There are quite a few who have had many problems uninstalling it because the default windows uninstaller would not remove the program completely. It would reinstall itself again. You obviously are not very clear on the workings of Gator and if you are you must be ignoring all the posts people post about their problems with Gator getting on machines without the owner's permission.
Bottom line—it's wrong and bad business. Why do you think people complain about Gator so much? If Gator was doing the right thing, people would not complain or you would not hear much in the way of complaints. But in many webmaster related forums, at least one other forum, and also a couple clients, I hear the same sentiments being aired repeatedly. Perhaps you ought to take note and get informed more about Gator before making off-the-wall remarks.
Why all the lawsuits? Why all the complaints? Why? Because what they are doing is viewed as an invasion upon people's computers and their web sites. A large number of people never authorized the invasion. It's wrong—wrong—wrong!
As for legality sake, hopefully that too will change and soon too
Somehow, I sorta gather ChryslerBldg is pro-Gator. If so ChryslerBldg will get some stiff opposition on that idea.
[ Message was edited by: Curt 04/02/2003 11:16 pm ]
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ChryslerBldg
Joined: Apr 02, 2001
# Posts: 76
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Posted: 04/03/2003 08:26 am
Curt,
I'm happy to discuss this with you as an adult. Being insulting and belittling serves no purpose other than to make you look childish.
Gator does disclaim it's installs and no amount of shouting or foot stamping changes that fact. Gator is a top 25 trafficed website and runs ads for dozens of Fortune 500 companies (granted I don't think these companies understand the web completely).
Just because you don't like something does not make it illegal. I dislike cigarettes, I feel cigarettes cause cancer, but cigarettes are not illegal because of my opinions.
You mention lawsuits and complaints...I have had lawsuits against my company, and I have initatied lawsuits against other companies, for a number of things. It's business, it has nothing to do with illegalities. If someone feels they were wronged they can file a lawsuit for any reason. Same thing with complaints.
Again, you're complaining that something is illegal simply because it negatively impacts you finacially and that is not the way things are.
Instead of spending all this energy making fun of me, why don't you spend it on shutting down Gator?
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OAC
Moderator
Joined: Jan 25, 2001
# Posts: 6784
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Posted: 04/03/2003 03:43 pm
OK guys, that's enough.
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 04/03/2003 09:26 pm
Being insulting and belittling serves no purpose other than to make you look childish.
If there was something in the post that insulted you, I'm sorry about the inference.
It appeared you were sticking up for Gator. I've seen pro-Gator people post similar to you in the past.
I never said it was illegal (did say they should be illegal but did NOT say they are illegal). I did say that the disclaimer is not valid because the user doesn't see the disclaimer. Again, how can they make the disclaimer valid if the user doesn't see the disclaimer before the install? They can't claim any disclaimer under those installation procedures. That's the point and I can't figure out why you can't see that obvious problem.
As for shutting down Gator, I'm doing what I can in that regard. Some people use $$$ and others use the press. I choose the press.
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 04/03/2003 09:30 pm
I should clarify something...
The users that get it sneaked onto their system can't see the disclaimer until it's too late which basically invalidates the disclaimer for those computer users. And it's hard to remove Gator once it's installed further making them the bad guys. What they are doing is wrong even if it's legal for the moment it's still wrong.
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Curious_Mark
Moderator
Joined: Dec 02, 2001
# Posts: 2142
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Posted: 04/06/2003 02:19 pm
If you would like an effective way to remove Gator components from your registry try downloading the free SpyWare detection/Elimination software, Ad-aware. I have used it for quite sometime now and have helped others rid themselves of Gator using it.
We all hate Gator I suspect and sticking together is a great way to fight back. It was nice to see people work out their differences here with very little trouble.
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 04/07/2003 02:02 pm
I could suggest another very good spyware scanner & removal software that sometimes removes stuff that Ad-Aware won't remove but then these boards don't allow ads as recommendations.
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hctaffy
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 151
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Posted: 04/08/2003 12:23 pm
ChryslerBldg: Sorry Mates....but to me there is nothing more juvenile that complaining about "greed" on a web forum about making money.
Overture is no more "greedy" than you or I. Who are you to tell me how much I or anyone else can legally earn?
Wow, I love these threads almost as much as I love the neverending junk email telling me to enlarge orifaces of my body and freezing up my internet explorer with neverending pop ups!! Thanks ChryslerBldg!!
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OAC
Moderator
Joined: Jan 25, 2001
# Posts: 6784
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Posted: 04/08/2003 05:18 pm
While I believe that products such as Gator are morally reprehensible and that Overture's association with such products is similarly so, from a webmaster's point of view, I just can't see the problem, with the "loss of revenue".
Companies change their pricing, product lines and service all the time. When a company stops offering a service I want, I go elsewhere. If they change the conditions of a service such that a competitors service is now better, then I'll change suppliers. If a company jacks their prices, I'll do a competitive price analysis and go elsewhere if competitors are cheaper. If the ROI for advertising in a particular journal, Radio network/station, TV network/station, PPC provider (eg Overture) declines, for whatever reason, I'll do a reassessment of the medium and decide whether it's worthwhile continuing or not. Companies change their formats/conditions all the time.
There is no point in bitching, IMHO, just reassess your arrangement in the light of the new conditions and move or cut your expenditure, according to the ROI. When the ROI approaches zero, or if competitors offer better ROI and/or sales, then dump Overture. But until then, so long as the positives of using Overture outweigh the negatives (inc. ROI), then I'll continue to use them.
Overture's change(s) can't be compared to the infamous Looksmart change, because Overture provides the service for which you paid.
My 2 cents
[ Message was edited by: OAC 04/08/2003 07:21 pm ]
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Curt
Joined: Eons Ago
# Posts: 3689
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Posted: 04/11/2003 11:04 am
OAC, isn't that a rather over-simplistic way of looking at it? There's more to it than that and I believe you know that too. OV has a huge market percentage and because of that, it affects lots of things—one reason I hate it when companies and services get too big and too influencial and then decide to get greedy just because they can and currently think that advertisers can't go elsewhere for the same service which is partially true to some extent.
I know there are alternative ways to market things, but OV is still the biggest PPC by far and that's where the problem lies. When a service is big, they have a bigger responsibility and they are not living up to that responsibility. They think that just because they are a business they don't have to live by common decency and morals as long as it's just inside the laws. It's simply appalling the path they have chosen. WE applauded them just a year ago for not sucumbing to the whiles of thiefware and now what do they do?? They have short term memory or something.
It's like they are throwing away their ethics little by little. Like the mighty Romans, it will be their down fall—hope others see them for what they are. I realize some people here don't care about that, but I hope not all is lost to the almighty dollar. Business is not an excuse for being hardnosed, uncaring and being greedy to this extent. It's time to support someone else and de-throne OV and those like it.
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FlimFlam
Joined: Sep 04, 2002
# Posts: 138
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Posted: 04/11/2003 01:13 pm
Get it started. Create decent, quality, interested U.S.A. ppc traffic that is looking for my goods and services thru real, valid, trafficked search engines, with long-term contracts so I know it won't disappear overnight, and that gives me acceptable ROI. My credit card is ready.
"It's time to support someone else..." Who? Google?
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