Not only did OV raise their minimum to 10¢, they are also testing Gator ads to explore new sources of revenue. Are they greedy or what?

Read for yourself [HERE]

Quoted from: ZDNet

... A small "info" tag on the results says they originate from "top search engines." During the test phase, Gator is using results from paid search kingpin Overture Services, Terra Lycos and FindWhat.com. ...

...For its part, Overture acknowledged that it is testing a relationship with Gator on its search-related pop-unders, but the company said it does not comment on tests. It did say that it's always looking at new distribution partners. ...

Everybody loves Gator, right?

I uninstall it everytime it installs itself.

We really should not have to uninstall Gator because it sneaks onto our machines—that just stinks big time. Gator shouldn't be auto-installing itself at all behind the person's back.

And Overture is looking to support this scumware and they do not care where they make money from. Overture is lowering themselves to the level of scumware by partnering up with Gator. Is there no limit to their greediness? If OV continues down this path, they will also sink AltaVista too. High bid prices and low ethics = Overture.

You just have to get rid of it in the registry and your sorted because you can stick some random comment in there with the same details and it shouldnt install because it thinks it already is....!

It's just sad that OV is becoming so unfriendly to advertisers. They should just say upfront “If you can't spend tons of money on us, we don't want you and if you don't like scumware, go advertise elsewhere because we like Gator.” I'm very disappointed in them because I would like to advertise on a currently popular PPC, but they are simply doing too many things wrong.

BTW netcservices I've never had Gator install itself on my puter probably because I don't surf much except for some research I do from time to time. I also have software that keeps those proggies off my system.

Nice clips from Overture's Annual Report (found at http://biz.yahoo.com/e/030228/over10-k.html as previously noted by OAC):

"In addition to the above continuing affiliate agreements, from time to time, we engage in tests with potential affiliates for trial periods to provide paid introductions. Revenue from advertisers who receive paid introductions through Overture, as supplied during these trial periods, can be significant. In the fourth quarter, we had one such arrangement." That answers the question, "Am *I* getting charged for Overture's "tests" with scumbags?"

It's also interesting to note the following list of Overture's Top 10 affiliates in terms of revenue (not in order of revenue):
AltaVista
AOL
Comet Systems
Terra Lycos
MSN
CNET
Applied Semantics (formerly Oingo)
Wanadoo (acquired Freeserve)
Yahoo
InfoSpace (Excite, Dogpile and Webcrawler)

Man, some of that traffic is exactly what I need, but a few of those "partners" are just slightly up the ethical ladder from Gator, IMO.

Sorry Mates....but to me there is nothing more juvenile that complaining about "greed" on a web forum about making money.

Overture is no more "greedy" than you or I. Who are you to tell me how much I or anyone else can legally earn?

I'm not complaining about their greed. Not complaining about them raising the bids to ten cents. Not complaining about them monopolizing search and securing long-term contracts for such. But I will complain about them delivering bullsh*t traffic with my money due to their greed. Because that impacts me, square in my greed center.

ChryslerBldg, I define greed as when someone skips out on principle and good will in favor of making money anyway they can. Overture is beginning to do just that IMO. It's OK to make money, but to start raping our money accounts is overboard and it's that trend that I'm against. I can say that Overture is more greedy than I am because I would not do what they do to make money. In fact, I would have lowered the minimum to 3¢ per click to entice more bidding and spending.

It's not about what you can legally earn, it's about doing the right thing when making money. I have nothing against making money. I do have something against their high price hikes for minimum bids—not allowing me to bid what I think I should bid and partnering with scumware. Their actions are speaking --> “GREEDY.”

ChryslerBldg said:

Who are you to tell me how much I or anyone else can legally earn?

You missed the whole point of the thread. Go back and re-read and don't be so quick to post such remarks. And read about the GATOR PARTNERSHIP WITH OVERTURE TOO.

I think the Gator advertising will stop a lot of advertisers. When my money runs dry, I will be closing my Overture account if they are still testing with Gator. I don't spend a lot with OV, but they have made a lot of money from ethical advertising that no-one minds. After all they have bought AltaVista and FAST, but now they are supporting an appalling advertising medium.

The increase in price was one thing that many can accept (maybe begrudgingly) but the advertising was ethical and relevant to the the users request. Now they are relevant, but Gator does not advertise at the users request.

Gator also does NOT advertise at the web site owners request with the popup ads they put over site owners' sites' without their permission which is precisely why 10 big web site owners are suing Gator. And Overture works with Gator knowing how much their advertisers do not want Gator ads over their sites.

closed my over account today

I got an email from a woman yesterday who had one of our ads pop up on her desktop. She was pretty upset and wanted me to tell her how to uninstall our software on her machine. Well, we don't have software and have never authorized anyone to advertise for us in such a way. There is so much bad "karma" associated with Gator and similar sneaky software that she not only didn't believe me, but went on to say that she would NEVER purchase anything from us and was going to tell everyone she knew do do the same.

I have sent emails to my rep at Overture and have yet to hear back regarding my concerns about Gator. I take a lot of pride in our site and our ethical way of doing business. I think that this proposed partnership with Gator can only hurt most advertisers. I spent over $200k last year with overture and will probably spend more this year, unless this gator thing is around for good. At that point, I will really have to reconsider Overture as a reliable source of traffic.

Ok, Overture/Gator Update...

I got a call yesterday from a couple of Overture representatives talking to me over a speaker phone. They were telling me about the potential qualified traffic that will come from the G.A.I.N. Network advertising. They showed me examples of how the ads are showing up. If you are unfortunate enough to have Gator installed on your system, and do a search that matches something in the GAIN system, then a new window opens behind the current one with a search engine results page. It is a page of relevant results based on the search criteria of the user.

I still don't feel comfortable being affiliated with GAIN, but with over 40% of our traffic/sales coming from Overture, we are not going to let them go. If ever an effective alternative should present itself, then I would have to reconsider.

Gator should add a "browserfficient upgrade" that would take control of your cursor and automatically click the links it deems most profit-worthy, errr, I mean relevant. That would get me a lot of traffic. I like it!! <snarf>

Please don't give em any more ideas Next they will send everyone the product automatically and deducting the cost from their checking account.

FlimFlam and Richard ... teeeheee that's funny in a cynical kind of way.

Next they will send everyone the product automatically and deducting the cost from their checking account.

Gator sends me a Mercedes and later finds out that I don't have that much in my bank account.

I wouldnt be complining.

File off the serial codes and change the number plates and they couldnt take it back cos they cant prove its theirs

Fortunately they could never get quite that far. If they did, they would get to know Shock and Awe.

netcservices.co.uk said:

I wouldnt be complining.

File off the serial codes and change the number plates and they couldnt take it back cos they cant prove its theirs

:D hahaha yes, I suppose I wouldn't complain either if I could keep the Mercedes for a few thousand (or resell it at a major profit). Guess I gotta be sure to keep most of my money under the mattress so Gator can't get it from my checking account

Interesting. I've never been attacked by Gator before, however, food for thought: A few months back a piece of software installed itself on my maching after visiting a site. Not only did I complain to them, but also--uh, can't remember who--commerce department or something--that a virus was installed on my machine by this company. They did react hostily, so I'm guessing I was pushing some right buttons. I think the argument is strong that something like this is a virus and should be reported and treated as such. Well, look at your McAfee for the appropriate authorities...
The argument that it is not a virus is?

The funny thing about Gator is that they said a year ago they do not condone sneaking Gator onto computers. But their allowance of using that method clearly makes them liars because I have read hundreds of reports of Gator being sneaked onto unsuspecting surfers. The surfers are only told afterwards that they have Gator installed after it's too late to stop the download.

And Overture wants to partner with such a company? Makes yah wonder what kind of company Overture is for working with Gator.

Also I think if you sued Gator for installing something on your computer without authorization you would most likely win hands down.

Id sue them for criminal damage because it does mess your computer up big time.

Either that or because I run a business from my machine maybe ill get them closed down for industrial sabotage with malicious intent. I could probably get away with it too

Actually, you probably couldn't.

Everything they do is disclaimed. And that makes it legal. You may disgree with it, but it's not illegal (at least not as of yet)

How can a person agree to a disclaimer that they can't even see before the program is installed? That could throw it back into the illegal end of the spectrum.

When you install programs on your machines, you almost always agree to agreements and disclaimers before the installation takes place. Just install Adobe products or Microsoft products. A disclaimer and agreement must be agreed upon before installation commences. With Gator, you cannot agree to any disclaimer you haven't seen. That in and of itself could very well push the case into the illegal realm WHERE IT BELONGS.

Bottom line... for many people who got Gator'd, there was no agreement for installation nor was there any disclaimer to be agreed too. It was a sneaky forced download tactic and that qualifies it as a new form of virus (hybrid virus) though not malicious in nature (some would argue that too) but still a virus of sorts. They are auto-loading software that the user did not ask for.

You're mistaken. Gator disclaims exactly what they are installing when the install gets launched. There is nothing illegal about ad-ware. It's is disclaimed and it's uninstallable.

Again, you may disagree with it, but it's completely legal at present.

You are definitely missing the point. How can they disclaim something that the user cannot agree too??? In order for the disclaimer to be valid the user has to see it first before installation. Wake up!

Ha uninstallable?

There are quite a few who have had many problems uninstalling it because the default windows uninstaller would not remove the program completely. It would reinstall itself again. You obviously are not very clear on the workings of Gator and if you are you must be ignoring all the posts people post about their problems with Gator getting on machines without the owner's permission.

Bottom line—it's wrong and bad business. Why do you think people complain about Gator so much? If Gator was doing the right thing, people would not complain or you would not hear much in the way of complaints. But in many webmaster related forums, at least one other forum, and also a couple clients, I hear the same sentiments being aired repeatedly. Perhaps you ought to take note and get informed more about Gator before making off-the-wall remarks.

Why all the lawsuits? Why all the complaints? Why? Because what they are doing is viewed as an invasion upon people's computers and their web sites. A large number of people never authorized the invasion. It's wrong—wrong—wrong!

As for legality sake, hopefully that too will change and soon too

Somehow, I sorta gather ChryslerBldg is pro-Gator. If so ChryslerBldg will get some stiff opposition on that idea.

[ Message was edited by: Curt 04/02/2003 11:16 pm ]

Curt,

I'm happy to discuss this with you as an adult. Being insulting and belittling serves no purpose other than to make you look childish.

Gator does disclaim it's installs and no amount of shouting or foot stamping changes that fact. Gator is a top 25 trafficed website and runs ads for dozens of Fortune 500 companies (granted I don't think these companies understand the web completely).

Just because you don't like something does not make it illegal. I dislike cigarettes, I feel cigarettes cause cancer, but cigarettes are not illegal because of my opinions.

You mention lawsuits and complaints...I have had lawsuits against my company, and I have initatied lawsuits against other companies, for a number of things. It's business, it has nothing to do with illegalities. If someone feels they were wronged they can file a lawsuit for any reason. Same thing with complaints.

Again, you're complaining that something is illegal simply because it negatively impacts you finacially and that is not the way things are.

Instead of spending all this energy making fun of me, why don't you spend it on shutting down Gator?

OK guys, that's enough.

Being insulting and belittling serves no purpose other than to make you look childish.

If there was something in the post that insulted you, I'm sorry about the inference.

It appeared you were sticking up for Gator. I've seen pro-Gator people post similar to you in the past.

I never said it was illegal (did say they should be illegal but did NOT say they are illegal). I did say that the disclaimer is not valid because the user doesn't see the disclaimer. Again, how can they make the disclaimer valid if the user doesn't see the disclaimer before the install? They can't claim any disclaimer under those installation procedures. That's the point and I can't figure out why you can't see that obvious problem.

As for shutting down Gator, I'm doing what I can in that regard. Some people use $$$ and others use the press. I choose the press.

I should clarify something...

The users that get it sneaked onto their system can't see the disclaimer until it's too late which basically invalidates the disclaimer for those computer users. And it's hard to remove Gator once it's installed further making them the bad guys. What they are doing is wrong even if it's legal for the moment it's still wrong.

If you would like an effective way to remove Gator components from your registry try downloading the free SpyWare detection/Elimination software, Ad-aware. I have used it for quite sometime now and have helped others rid themselves of Gator using it.

We all hate Gator I suspect and sticking together is a great way to fight back. It was nice to see people work out their differences here with very little trouble.

I could suggest another very good spyware scanner & removal software that sometimes removes stuff that Ad-Aware won't remove but then these boards don't allow ads as recommendations.

ChryslerBldg: Sorry Mates....but to me there is nothing more juvenile that complaining about "greed" on a web forum about making money.

Overture is no more "greedy" than you or I. Who are you to tell me how much I or anyone else can legally earn?


Wow, I love these threads almost as much as I love the neverending junk email telling me to enlarge orifaces of my body and freezing up my internet explorer with neverending pop ups!! Thanks ChryslerBldg!!

While I believe that products such as Gator are morally reprehensible and that Overture's association with such products is similarly so, from a webmaster's point of view, I just can't see the problem, with the "loss of revenue".

Companies change their pricing, product lines and service all the time. When a company stops offering a service I want, I go elsewhere. If they change the conditions of a service such that a competitors service is now better, then I'll change suppliers. If a company jacks their prices, I'll do a competitive price analysis and go elsewhere if competitors are cheaper. If the ROI for advertising in a particular journal, Radio network/station, TV network/station, PPC provider (eg Overture) declines, for whatever reason, I'll do a reassessment of the medium and decide whether it's worthwhile continuing or not. Companies change their formats/conditions all the time.

There is no point in bitching, IMHO, just reassess your arrangement in the light of the new conditions and move or cut your expenditure, according to the ROI. When the ROI approaches zero, or if competitors offer better ROI and/or sales, then dump Overture. But until then, so long as the positives of using Overture outweigh the negatives (inc. ROI), then I'll continue to use them.

Overture's change(s) can't be compared to the infamous Looksmart change, because Overture provides the service for which you paid.

My 2 cents

[ Message was edited by: OAC 04/08/2003 07:21 pm ]

OAC, isn't that a rather over-simplistic way of looking at it? There's more to it than that and I believe you know that too. OV has a huge market percentage and because of that, it affects lots of things—one reason I hate it when companies and services get too big and too influencial and then decide to get greedy just because they can and currently think that advertisers can't go elsewhere for the same service which is partially true to some extent.

I know there are alternative ways to market things, but OV is still the biggest PPC by far and that's where the problem lies. When a service is big, they have a bigger responsibility and they are not living up to that responsibility. They think that just because they are a business they don't have to live by common decency and morals as long as it's just inside the laws. It's simply appalling the path they have chosen. WE applauded them just a year ago for not sucumbing to the whiles of thiefware and now what do they do?? They have short term memory or something.

It's like they are throwing away their ethics little by little. Like the mighty Romans, it will be their down fall—hope others see them for what they are. I realize some people here don't care about that, but I hope not all is lost to the almighty dollar. Business is not an excuse for being hardnosed, uncaring and being greedy to this extent. It's time to support someone else and de-throne OV and those like it.

Get it started. Create decent, quality, interested U.S.A. ppc traffic that is looking for my goods and services thru real, valid, trafficked search engines, with long-term contracts so I know it won't disappear overnight, and that gives me acceptable ROI. My credit card is ready.

"It's time to support someone else..." Who? Google?

Curt, I am not sure what more I can say - I said the Gator association was morally reprehensible but that wouldn't stop me using Overture's normal PPC (i.e. not Gator), providing it was profitable. OTOH, unless the entire industry turns to scumware advertising, I won't be using such advertising. But PPC, no problem, providing it is profitable.

At least Overture give you what you paid for, unlike a certain well known directory that took your money for a lifetime listing then gave you PPC instead.

Yes OAC, I know what you are saying and understand that perspective.

What are you gonna do when you find your PPC listing showing up as Gator popunders?? That's what will happen when the right targeted keywords get hit via Gator on competitor pages. For example, if Gator runs across “Web Hosting” and you run “Web hosting services” and are bidding on the key phrase “Web hosting”, guess what? Your site is getting pulled into the Gator popunder OV listings. Do you want your site associated with Gator?

Other competitors will be contacting those other individuals that show up in those popunder listings and you'll be right in the mix getting angry emailings from your competitors. Don't know if you've thought about it like that, but that's what is gonna happen eventually. People already hate the direct Gator advertisers. They won't like the Gator popunders with OV results anymore than they like those Direct Advertisers.

---
FlimFlam,
I hear yah. Right now we don't have many choices in PPC. Google so far hasn't sucumbed to thiefware. I know some people have issues with GG too and if that's the case, I'm afraid I don't have many suggestions of other alternative PPCs worth while.

I thought perhaps Kanoodle might be a choice, but one of the members here said they are using some sort of program to display some of their results (don't remember what the exact thing was there). At any rate the person claimed that the clickthroughs were not targeted and converted very poorly. I cannot confirm that. Perhaps that other person can comment on what he was talking about or point us to that thread about kanoodle and PPCs.

FindWhat is still courting thiefware for their PPC listings so that's not really an option.

Guess Google is all there is in the PPC market. I've not dealt with Google yet. Anyone know what their minimum bid amount per click is?

"Do you want your site associated with Gator?"

No way.

"Anyone know what their minimum bid amount per click is?"

It varies. Why don't you check the AdWords Forum, you're sure to get pointed in the right direction.

BTW -- does anybody feel like Overture is making their last few grabs while they can? Like the Spice Girls, but their movie came out just a month too late, right after all their legions of Wannabes switched to the Backstreet Boys? MSN, Yahoo come up with their own Next Best Things, and pretty soon Overture has nothing left but the scumbags, like ex-Spices taking any late-night talk-show gig they can get.

OAC said:

...No way.

hahaha, I didn't think so

Yah know it's kinda weird, but you'd think OV would do what they could to hold onto their advertisers. It looks like they are only thinking short-term, perhaps 3-6 months. Once the advertisers wise up and realize that they are getting Gator'd, many will drop OV. OV would do much better developing their engines rather than working with Gator.

They have the start of a great little engine called FAST, but instead decide to kill off a sizeable client list instead. If they were smart, they'd build brand awareness of FAST and make it popular. Then they'd have an engine with traffic to use the top 3—5 spots for OV ads and no need to resort to short term thiefware contracts.

Instead they use thiefware and not only gonna kill off (or cripple) OV, but also kill/cripple FAST and AV too when word gets out that they also own them too. OH well... guess they don't mind tainting all 3 of their engines with thiefware.

Back to Gator--since we're voting--I guess reading these threads one thing I do not understand is how one can say what they are doing is perfectly legal (there doesn't seem to be disagreement there) when Gator is being installed prior to any acknowledgement and acceptance. That is not legal, that is a virus. One can argue that it is not a virus because the intent is not to cause damage, but if I were to write and distribute a virus that played Jingle Bells on your PC speaker everytime you pressed the esc key, is my sharing of joy considered a virus? You bet! So tell this ignorant guy, why is Gator not a virus?
Note: I have not had experience with Gator, but with similar, less popular and reprehensible software that sound equally as difficult to remove. Regarding Overture, Google and anyone else's greed; they will die soon. It is like buying an Encyclopedia where you can have your name listed for a price. Neat, but the book loses functionality. I'm confident the market will thin the herd, unless, of course, IE is built so that is can only use MSN... Finally, I really have a distaste for ppl saying there's nothing you can do about it, I heard that implied once or twice in this thread. I do not pay Yahoo and their ridiculous terms and that is several hundreds or thousands of dollars they will not see because of their own stupidity. Yes, it's skin off my nose, but not enough. I'm guessing there are a few more of you that thumbed your nose at them inspite of the ROI.

There are many people fighting this type of monstrosity. The problem is there are no laws that govern this type of application head-on. The various governments are loath to take this stuff on because it has the potential to overload judicial systems and be very expensive to litigate.

In some ways this is good because the powers that would like to control the Internet solely for big business can't do so because the lawmakers are afraid to wade into a potential legal Stalingrad which certain areas of the Internet are. Just my thoughts.

In some ways this is good because the powers that would like to control the Internet solely for big business can't do so because the lawmakers are afraid to wade into a potential legal Stalingrad which certain areas of the Internet are. Just my thoughts.

Yep, a double edged sword, the legal system is. Trouble is, it also protects the bad guys from swift justice.

Totally true, but really only the wealthy can afford swift justice.

Ah the joys of avoiding PPC in the first place! No scum-ware, no budgets, no adding up bid pricing, no grief!

Avoiding PPC is like avoiding income as far as I can see. Stick with PPC programs that do not piggy-back with scumware. For my dollar I will avoid using Overture like the plague until they lose Gator.

There have been many searches where I used the paid results first as the vast majority of them are relevant and screened helping searchers in my opinion.